Content warning: This episode contains hypnotic language and references. Please use caution in listening.
Listen to the episode here.
In this episode of the Kinky Nerdy Poly (KNP) podcast, M and G discuss the intricacies and wonders of hypnosis play and its applications within the kink community. With emphasis on hypnotic techniques and its magical elements, the hosts explore definitions, precautions, and ethical considerations surrounding hypnosis. They delve into how hypnosis alters brain activity, enhancing suggestibility and creating altered perceptions. The episode covers the flow of a hypnotic scene, popular media depictions like ‘The Jungle Book’ and ‘Dollhouse,’ and the broad possibilities of hypnosis, from sexual therapy to complex role-playing fantasies.
Sources from the episode:
- Sexual therapy hypnosis article – https://www.healthline.com/health/healthy-sex/sexual-hypnosis
- Journal article on neuroscience of hypnosis – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3528837/
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Email: kinky.nerdy.poly@gmail.com
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The music in this episode is the Secret of Tiki Island by Kevin MacLeod and is licensed under Creative Commons 3.0. You can find more of Kevin MacLeod’s music at his website.
This episode was titled by beta listener ‘K’. Thanks, K!
TRANSCRIPT
The following is a transcript of the episode. The transcript has NOT been edited for any errors following the automatic transcription so errors may be contained within:
[00:00:00]
M: Hi, this is M.
G: This is G.
M: And on today’s episode of the Kinky Nerdy Polly podcast,
G: we’re going to be talking about hypnosis play and kinky magic.
M: Yeah, which honestly, the title of this episode, I kind of want to find something clever and fun.
G: Yeah.
M: like abracadabra, you, I don’t know, fill in the blanks, kinky thing.
G: Abracadabra, your clothes disappear? [00:01:00]
M: Yeah, something like that. Actually the most of the emphasis of this episode is going to be on the hypnosis and less on the magic y parts.
G: Okay.
M: But I wanted to tie in magic for a reason. But before we get started.
G: Yes.
M: I wanted to give a big old content warning.
G: Big old warning. Alright, hit me with it.
M: This episode may contain hypnotic references and wording, so if you do not wish to hear those references, Please do not listen to the episode. If you are particularly suggestible, then caution is also warranted. Any demonstration of hypnosis in this episode is done for educational purposes only.
I thought that was important.
G: Yes.
M: I actually know someone who, just by saying the word trance, could just drop it a trance.
G: Really?
M: Yes.
G: Okay.
M: So, and then also, like, we’ll talk about subject agency a little bit, later on as well. But, so that was just a big ol content warning, and you know, we’ve briefly touched on this topic before.
G: Yes. Several times.
M: Several times. Cause it’s like one of my main kinks.
G: Yeah. You’ve gone to [00:02:00] conventions about hypnosis kink, right? .
M: I have gone to conventions about hypnosis? Yes. Mm-Hmm? kink. Yeah. Recreational. Mm-Hmm. hypnosis. Yeah. for sure. For sure. and I wanted to devote this episode to really the ins and outs of hypnosis play.
singer: Mm-Hmm. .
M: And I wanted to tie it into magic. Yeah. More broadly.
singer: Mm-Hmm. .
M: but before we touch on that, let’s define as we normally do.
G: Yeah, let’s, let’s define. Lead us away. So,
M: what is hypnosis?
G: Are you asking me? The person who
M: does not practice hypnosis? Okay, why don’t you go ahead and ask me?
G: Okay. Em, what is hypnosis?
Could you please define it for us?
M: I could, I could do that for you, actually. So, hypnosis is a state of focused attention, heightened suggestibility, and deep relaxation, that is induced by a hypnotist or by using self hypnosis techniques. It is often used to promote relaxation, even manage pain in certain medical [00:03:00] conditions, and of course it can be used for recreational and kinky purposes.
G: Yes, in fact, just last night I got an advertisement on Instagram saying I could use hypnosis to help treat my IBS. And I do know that there, I’ve met and talked with people who’ve used hypnosis to deal with such things as Chronic pain and also to help quit smoking.
M: Yes. The quitting smoking one. I’ve heard a lot of people be pretty successful with it.
G: Yeah.
M: Actually, I am very curious about using it for chronic pain.
G: Mm-Hmm. ,
M: I, I’ve been able to induce pain relieving, um, effects using hypnosis on other people.but I think I would, I’d be very curious to, to, higher hypnotists that that’s what they specialize in is like chronic pain management?
G: From what I remember from the person I talked to, the way they described it was, it’s not like it gets rid of the pain completely. What it [00:04:00] does is it like turns the volume from like a nine down to like a three, which makes it much more manageable.
But, yeah, also while I was researching for this episode, I did find an article, which I’ll include the link in the show notes, which was talking about, sexual therapy hypnosis, which would help treat things such as, erectile dysfunction, painful intercourse, internalized shame when it comes to sex, plus some other stuff.
And it found it very interesting.
M: Yeah, this, this seems very interesting. And I think, hypnosis can be really versatile.
G: Yes.
M: and I wanted to talk about maybe why that is from a neurological perspective.
G: Okay. So I’m all ears.
M: So in the brain, hypnosis is thought to be involved in changes in brain activity and connectivity.
one line of research suggests that it might influence areas involved in attention, control of perception, and modulation of sensory input. So sort of like what you were just saying, that we can take a 9 and make it into a 3, right? [00:05:00] Or we could take a 3 of something else and augment it to a 9, like pleasant sensations, for example.
And specifically, hypnosis, is thought to alter the activity of the prefrontal cortex. That’s the area of the brain that’s involved in decision making, executive function, those things, height level, critical thinking. those sorts of things. But it also affects the anterior cingulate cortex, which is involved in emotional regulation and pain perception.
And I’ll put a link to a, a paper, where you can read up on the current theories around what’s going on in the brain. during hypnosis.
G: Okay.
M: So there is thought to be this shift in the usual patterns of with reduced activity in the default mode network that’s associated with mind wandering and referential thoughts.
And instead it increases connectivity between different brain regions. So that’s how we can access, things like, so our, parietal lobe is the one that’s involved in like sensory. And if we can get that to connect with other parts of our brain, then we might be able to like. Kind of hijack that, pain perception, for example, or
G: [00:06:00] Yeah, so I had this thought while I was driving up here, and if this is too much of a derailment, just let me know.
We can go back to the show notes. but this seems like a sort of altered mental state, and a thought that occurred to me on the drive up here was, Because I know people who’ve used, like, drugs to also achieve altered mental states. Is there any sort of crossover between that and hypnosis? Do people, like, use drugs to help make them more susceptible or something along those lines?
M: Yeah, I think certain drugs are actually known to be hypnotic drugs. For example, the drug Ambien. If you’ve heard of Ambien, it’s a sleep, it’s a drug that’s supposed to induce sleep. It has known hypnotic effects. From my understanding, it can be abused, for those purposes. And so there are definitely some drugs that are very specifically hypnotic, but even drugs that alter your visual perception or cause hallucinations, things like that.
It’s a very similar process, that’s happening in the brain. I do think that hypnosis at [00:07:00] large is an altered, you are inducing an altered mental state.
G: Yeah.
M: and that’s why it is really important to be, you know, getting consent from the people that you’re doing this with.
G: Yes.
M: I also, because you’re talking about drugs and their effect on, , the brain, it makes me think too that mixing drugs and hypnosis might be especially tricky.
G: Okay.
M: Because you’re adding like what kind of one altered mental state with another, or it might make you more prone to like, Depending on the drug that you’re taking, it might make you more prone to certain things. in hypnosis. So I do think that there’s a lot of caution to be given there. I don’t want to like dictate, like, don’t use XYZ drugs while doing hypnosis play.
G: Yeah.
M: Just a mindful, let’s be careful.
G: Yes.
M: so the changes that happen during hypnosis can enhance the brain’s responsiveness to suggestions, which are basically things that normally the test is telling the hypnotist is telling the subject, the hypnotee.
About their experiences. [00:08:00] And that can enable altered perceptions or behaviors that are actually given by the hypnotist.
G: Okay. So this is like the quack like a duck behavior.
M: Yes, exactly. It’s the quack like a duck. That’s what is often, seen in like stage hypnosis. Yeah. Gee, have you ever been to a stage hypnosis show?
G: I don’t think I have, but I’ve seen, in like, popular media, stage hypnotists. I think most of the magic I’ve seen has been more like sleight of hand, or Big tricks rather than, hypnotism.
M: So you have been to a magic show then?
G: Yes.
M: And what do you think about magic? What’s your impression of magic?
G: I love magic.
M: Yeah?
G: Yeah. What do you love about it? I don’t know. It’s like,
it’s, it’s an art form. and much like any art form, it can create, I think especially magic creates wonder in the audience and, it can be. awe inspiring of like how it’s like you you [00:09:00] see this person do this trick and like you know it’s impossible but like in that moment it’s it’s just sort of this moment of of a beauty, right?
Like, the, the world can be a beautiful place because like people can do these like wonderful illusions. Mm hmm.
M: There is this wonder and awe that goes along with magic and I love that description as well. then the reason that I wanted to put Hypnosis Play kind of paired with this sort of kinky magic idea is because, I think a lot of people, first of all, might be aware of stage hypnosis.
And in magician circles, hypnosis falls under a category of magic called, like, mentalism, or mental magic. there’s other types of mental magic, like, kind of predicting what somebody is thinking, or, I’m trying to think of some other examples of some mind manipulation, tactics.
G: well, the one that, I can think of off the top of my head is like, people pretending to be psychics and doing like cold readings on people.
M: Right, yeah, like cold readings, exactly. there’s a lot of similar properties across types of magic and from my understanding of people [00:10:00] who do mentalism broadly, which could include hypnosis. Is that they don’t tend to mix those big tricks with their thing. It’s a very focused on like, we’re going to be doing this kind of like mental based stuff.
And so I think that there’s a lot of similar properties. And for me, again, magic, just like you, it inspires wonder and awe. And it all comes down to diverting attention
G: and
M: really capturing the attention, putting it on something that you want them to pay attention to, taking it away from this other thing.
Right. That’s exactly what’s going on in hypnosis. Is that we want you to focus entirely on. The pendulum swinging. We want you to focus entirely on my voice. We want you to focus entirely on, right. And we don’t want you to focus on your shitty job.
G: The rent that you have to pay.
M: Exactly. We don’t want to, we don’t want you to think about how America is currently collapsing. It is diversion and it is convincing the audience, the person experiencing it, that certain things may have happened or be real, even if they’re impossible or [00:11:00] improbable. And so I think in these ways, hypnosis and, magic at large can feel like gaslighting.
G: That’s a very loaded term you just used right there. It is a very
M: loaded term. What I mean to say is there are some aspects of these things that can be used too. Gaslighter abuse folks.
G: Yes.
M: And so, or swindle. Mm hmm. Or scam.
G: Psychics. Right. You know, people who pretend that they can, you know, contact the dead and do cold readings to like, convince people that, you know, give me thousands of dollars and I’ll get you in touch with your loved one and stuff like that.
M: I do know that there are some psychics who do not take that approach.
G: Yes.
M: I, on where I am on believing that sort of stuff is, I don’t know, like, do I believe in ghosts? I constantly think about that. I only believe in ghosts if I’m fucking them.
G: Are we back to the Scottish ghost from TNG?
M: We are, we’re back to that, but I guess my point is, , if you’re listening to this and you are a psychic, [00:12:00] then we hope that you are doing it in ethical ways.
G: Yes.
M: What I meant by gaslighting was not to throw such a loaded term as much as it is to like, warn of the risks of these things can be used in less than consensual ways.
G: Yeah, I mean, this is
again, not to get too far off topic, but this kind of reminds me listened to this podcast once, which was talking about like the dark side of emotional intelligence, which is that the more emotionally intelligent you are, the more easily it is to manipulate other people’s emotions, to do things like gaslighting.
M: Yes. And I guess we should just put a warning of like, in this episode of like. I’m saying like a lot. You know, I did the thing I said, like, like, like, let me just take that, like, and throw it away. That’s a trick.
G: Throw it away.
M: I just threw it away.
G: Like
M: a bad socK.
something that I’ve thought about is fear play or similar other things that again relate to the brain and kind of hacking it or convincing it that something is real when it’s not or something is not real when it is.
G: Mm hmm. [00:13:00]
M: And I remember this scene, so like an example of this would be making someone believe you’re cutting them with a knife when really you just put your key in ice.
G: Yes,
M: and so it feels very sharp.
both: Mm hmm.
M: So you’re tricking the brain.
both: Yes,
M: and specifically that is definitely hijacking the parietal lobe Because it’s the sensory Center I think that I don’t know if you’ve had any experience with fear play type things where you could see that it could be kind of like a I’m gonna make you think this thing, but actually this thing’s going on.
G: Yeah, I mean, I’ve, I’ve done fear play before. not in the hypnosis sense, but I have done similar tricks of like, not using keys, but like using a table knife, dunking that in cold water and using that to pretend I’m cutting someone.and,
I’ve done some CNC type things where, consensual, non consent where a lot of it was based off threats and fear of violence, with very little actual violence involved.
M: This leads me to a question for you that I had about magic and [00:14:00] kink.
G: Yeah. The mystery question. It just says question for G.
M: And here it is. If you could do a kinky magic show. Okay. What is, what would be your, kinky magic trick?
G: What would be, this is the question you want to ask me? Okay. What did you think it was going to be? I had no idea. what would be my kinky magic trick?
What would I mean, part of the problem is like, while I’ve watched some magic shows, I actually don’t know how How it works? I mean, I know some of how it works, like I’ve watched some Ben and Teller, I know a lot of it’s about drawing your attention to one place, , , but you know, like the actual trick is happening somewhere else.
Right. but, what would be my kinky magic trick?
I feel like I could, it’d probably be something with like electricity.
M: I was gonna say because you are, you really like the violet wand.
G: Yeah, I could
pretend I was like doing like force lightning on someone. Mm hmm. something like that. Mm hmm. when [00:15:00] I actually like have it wired through the floor.
M: Ooh. That sounds intense.
G: Yeah, you asked for a kinky magic trick. I did ask,
M: I didn’t know where this was gonna go.
G: What would your kinky magic trick be?
M: My kinky magic trick would be Everyone reaches into their pants and they pull out A rubber duck!
Bet you didn’t see that one coming.
G: I did not see Is the rubber duck the kinky aspect? Or is it everybody reaching into their pants? I’m just curious what you consider the kinky aspect in this magic trick. Shall remain a mystery. Shall remain a mystery? Okay.
M: that being said, stage hypnosis and stuff like that, when you involve kinkiness, obviously it is hard to get third party consent from everybody who’s in an audience.
So that’s why typically kinky hypnosis scenes are done
G: In private.
M: In private. Right. Because of third party consent.
G: Yes.
M: So that’s [00:16:00] important.
G: But I imagine at a kink hypnosis festival, a lot of, a lot of people, some public play has to happen at the kink hypnosis festival, right?
M: I think so.
There used to be a lot more.
G: Okay.
M: And then I think the community , I don’t speak for the whole hypnosis community. I really should say that upfront. I’ve just noticed a shift that there used to be more like. Little bits of play happening out in hallways and like in public spaces. I do know they’ve been very clear lately of Make sure that the hotel staff isn’t around.
Because that’s involving people who are outside of thethe scene, the scene. And so, and so there’s a little bit that can be done in public,
both: but I
M: would say that it’s not grandiose things. And there are, I will say that there’s a lot of classes that are kind of like a kinky hypnosis show, because you know, going into that class, I’m going to be seen X, Y, Z.
Even then, I think it’s tricky because you [00:17:00] never know. what someone’s triggers might be, or how some, I know one problem is some, some people could be so suggestible that even if they’re like sitting in a class as like just an audience member, they might find themselves going into trance when they don’t intend to.
G: Okay.
M: So I do think there are some interesting ethical, concerns here.
G: Okay.
M: yes, there is a little bit of public play that can be done.
G: Okay.
M: Yeah. Well, and it’s just like any other kink convention, because I assume that there’s like, you know, demos of things where you’re watching a scene, basically.
G: Yeah, there’s demos of things, but also like, no, there I am saying, like, I need to throw that away. but there’s also scenes that just, so at least at the last one I went to, I There was sort of like a designated dungeon area, where, it was not, forbidden for the staff to go down there, , the staff knew that if they went down there they’d probably see some [00:18:00] shit, and so I think it was mostly just like staff taking away trash and stuff like that, and like cleaning up the bathrooms, So yeah, I’ve, I don’t think there, at least the ones I’ve been to, there’s not been like a stricture of like, you can’t do it around staff, which I find interesting as a difference between like the kink scene and the, erotic hypnosis scene.
Mm
M: hmm. Okay. Yeah. It’s interesting.
G: Cause I feel like.
It feels to me, and you can correct me if I’m wrong because you’re the one who’s actually has a feet in both worlds in this case, erotic hypnosis feels for the most part would be tamer to watch than like a regular like flogging or rope scene.
M: That’s how I kind of feel about it. I feel personally that it’s a little bit tamer to watch.
it depends on what the content of the scene is, of course.
G: Yeah.
M: Of course. and hypnosis scenes could involve flogging or they could involve sex or they could involve XYZ, activity. But there’s ways to make it very subtle.
G: Yes.
M: Whereas like, [00:19:00] you can’t really make a flogging scene subtle.
G: No.
M: Right?
G: Mm hmm.
M: I agree with that. But, yeah, these are all interesting things, too, that the community, I think, is thinking about at large. but my background in hypnosis play and kinky magic is that, , you already talked about, gee, a big draw is that awe and the wonder. I love having the wool pulled over my eyes?
Pulled
G: The wool.
M: Pulled what’s the idiom?
G: Well, the wool. The wool, the, now you’re confusing me. Oh no. It’s the wool pulled from your eyes, cause like you are, it’s, the idiom is like, I see more clearly now.
M: Oh.
G: Yeah.
M: So I don’t want that to happen. I want to see less clearly. I want the wool covering my eyes.
G: Yes.
M: Okay, I’ll have to double check our idioms after this episode, because I don’t know if we got that one right, but, I like the feeling of being mystified. I just love that. I have, I have since I was a kid. [00:20:00] And I don’t know. I’ll give an anecdote about something called a handshake induction.
both: Okay. This
M: is one of the first times that I, not the first, but just in my earlier days of hypnosis play and someone who I know named, ST, that’s how I refer to them, ST, he was doing a, handshake induction on me and I had never, I didn’t know what a handshake induction was.
but basically, the idea behind it is that you go in for a handshake with someone, and right before you get to the handshake part, you take their hand and you put it up towards their face. This is one version.
And you put it up towards the person’s face, and you can give, that’s where you now have a chance, because, Your brain expects the full handshake.
G: You
M: expect that when someone goes into a handshake, they’re going to do the full handshake.
G: Yes.
M: So by interrupting it, it’s called an interruption.
G: Okay.
M: You interrupt that pathway in their brain, and you give it a chance for another command, another idea to come in place.
G: You’re trying to short circuit? You’re short
M: circuiting.
G: Okay.
M: [00:21:00] And then you can put in some kind of, thing like freeze. Okay.
G: Okay.
M: And then the person might freeze in place.
G: Okay.
M: So, when I had this first done to me for the first time ST did it, ST described exactly what was going to happen to me. Word for word, said this is exactly what will happen to you.
G: Alright.
M: So I even knew how the trick was going to be done.
G: Okay.
M: And then it happened. And it still worked. And I was amazed. I was amazed how well it worked.
Because I had already been explicitly told the exact steps of the process. Like, this is what, you know?although that can also be part of, the hypnosis.
G: Yeah, it reminds me of Going back to the magic example, it reminds me of this one time where a magician was explaining a trick in like a YouTube video of how that they pull a silk, a silk scarf out of an egg and showed like a little hole and it was like a customized thing and then at the end of the [00:22:00] video he cracked it like an actual egg and it dropped into a bowl that he had in front of him and like actual egg yolk in there.
M: He was
G: explaining one trick while also saying another trick.
M: Oh, wow.
G: Yeah. It’s not the exact same thing, but it feels similar.
M: Absolutely. Yeah. And so, also this would be just a good place for me. We’ll talk a little bit more about it in a bit, but an induction is kind of the tranceition from awake to entranced.
Awake to asleep, or however you want to say it.so that’s the transitionary period.
G: Okay.
M: And, so that’s my first draw, is just the awe and the wonder and the wow, that worked! Yeah. Wow, that’s insane, our brains can do that! I love that! I love brains.
G: Yeah.
M: I don’t, whoa, that sounded weird. I am not a zombie.
We have this on record.
G: You’re a robot.
M: That’s right.
G: Yeah.
M: Yeah.
G: Another What is a robot but a computer zombie?
M: That’s a little sad. That’s a little [00:23:00] sad. Don’t you think robots are a little bit more lifelike? So another draw for me to hypnosis play is the power dynamic between the hypnotee, who’s, that’s frequently referred to as the subject, And the Hypnotist, which is sometimes abbreviated to just the Tist.
G: Okay.
M: those roles can be reversed too, so it doesn’t always have to be the Tist that holds the power.
G: Okay.
M: There are, ways to make it so that way the subject has power.
G: Okay.
M: but maybe that’s getting a little bit into the weeds for this episode.
G: Yes.
M: Because it’s more like an introductory, you know, episode.
G: so can you tell me sort of how, how a scene generally goes? Like, I assume most people just don’t just walk up and do like a handshake induction to people.
M: That’s, it’s a probably pretty good idea to not just walk up and do that to someone. So the general flow of a hypnotic scene is first of all, before the scene, there’s negotiation.
G: What do you actually want to be hypnotized about? Right.
M: Yeah. You need some details. [00:24:00] You need the consent. Then when you go into the scene, there’s something called pre talk.
G: Okay.
M: This is something that I feel does distinguish. I think pre talk can be used in normal kink play, but I don’t see it being used very often.
But pre talk is basically almost like reiterating the negotiation. But now in like this very , confident kind of like sexy manner where you’re like, this is what I’m going to do to you and you’re like preparing the mind. Cause if you just say you’re basically saying, like, you know, you, you’re very suggestible.
We already talked about that in our negotiation, , you know, you’re just gonna, you’re just gonna drop into trance very easily, and it’s, it’s kind of like this idea.
G: You’re trying to prep? . The hypnosis scene?
M: Yes, exactly. You’re doing some prep work, but it actually is kind of like integrated into this.
G: Okay. It’s
M: kind of preparing the mind, cause if, and especially it helps if the TIST has confidence. Yeah. That’s a big part of it.
G: Mm hmm.
M: Just like, I think magicians also have to have that confidence.
G: Yeah. I mean, that’s like 50 percent of life is just having the confidence to try to pull something off.
M: [00:25:00] Right. It’s like me every morning when I get out of bed.
So. You’re setting yourself up for success. This will happen.
G: Yeah.
M: Then you have the
G: induction. Well, that is the tranceition from awake to being in trance.
M: Yes. And this can be interspersed with some other things, but for the simplicity, I will say too, this is not the exact general order that things will go in, but it’s just a good overview.
G: Yeah.
M: So the induction is the transitionary phase. This is how we’re going to get you into trance. And that usually requires patterns, something like, gently, if you’re making like circles on someone’s skin, for example, just gently touching them in that same pattern, for example, or it could just be your voice guiding them through a meditation
G: and maybe repeating
M: some of the words, like you’re taking deeper breaths, you’re feeling more relaxed and you’re saying that over and over again. and it can be other patterns, like even having people do math.
G: Okay.
M: so that’s, it, there’s a lot of different ways to do it.
G: Wait, you’re telling me there’s a math
M: [00:26:00] induction? There is a math induction.
G: Okay.
M: It’s typically a type of what’s called a confusion induction.
G: Okay.
M: You might start with some simple math, things that are really easy.
2
G: plus 2 equals 4. 2 plus 2 equals
M: 4. And you just go ahead and keep giving them those easy ones and then at some point you just start getting a little harder. Okay. And then just escalate that very quickly to something that’s very hard and as soon as they are really struggling.
G: Yeah.
M: That’s when you’re gonna give your cue for them to drop into trance.
G: Okay.
M: Yes, there are things that involve math, which can be a lot of fun. it could also be the, the common pendulum swinging or the pocket watch, right? so just those patterns, then the person ideally drops into trance and suggestible like state. So here you can either stay at that level or you can kind of reinforce and get them to drop deeper.
And sort of the deeper that you can get them, that’s where they’re ideally more suggestible. and you can also kind of reinforce things.
G: Okay.
M: Like the next time you fall into trance, you’ll find it very easy to fall right back [00:27:00] here. Just as deep as you are right now.
G: Okay.
M: So that’s kind of that idea.
And the talking that’s going on during this time period is called patter.
G: Like pitter patter?
M: Sure. It’s just sort of this normally melodic, soothing, repetitive
both: voice.
M: So you have suggestions that you can give when the person is in trance. So that might be quack like a duck, or it might be something like a trigger.
Like when I say, like when I bring you back out of trance, you’re going to return to normal self, except that when I say quack,
G: You’re going to quack like
M: a duck, and that’s setting up a trigger.
G: Because now it’s
M: not happening in that trance state anymore.
G: You’ve just set it up in the trance state.
M: And then you can always reinforce these things. so, and you might want to. clear these suggestions too. Another thing that’s typically done at like the end of a session might be saying like, and you will never have these triggers affect you until the next agreed upon time that we decide that we want to do that.
Something like that. Cause really building in the consent. [00:28:00] And, and I will say too, in the kind of pre talk portion as well, there’s like the opposite of that, which is, saying things like, okay. you will have the ability to easily, safe word whenever is necessary.
G: Okay.
M: like you’ll find it easy to come out of trance if you need to.
Things like that. You can always include, and I think these safeties are really necessary.
G: So this leads me to ask a question, because my understanding was that While you can, while you are more suggestible. in a hypnotic state, you can’t be forced to do anything you don’t want to do.
M: I would say that that’s a misconception.
G: Oh, okay.
M: I, again, I don’t speak for everyone in the hypnosis community.if you are really suggestible.
G: Yeah.
M: I imagine there could be things that you could be suggested to do that you don’t necessarily want to do. Or maybe you do want to do it, but you might not want to do it right then and there.
G: Yeah.
M: Or in that context or with that person. So it might be hijacking the [00:29:00] brain because, you know, you, you would want to do that in another situation and then the thing could happen. And then you come out of trance and then you’re like, wait, I didn’t actually want to do that. I think that’s a tricky scenario,
G: but
M: I think it can happen that you could have someone do something that they don’t want to do.
G: Okay.
M: So that’s why safeties are important.It’s kind of like if you imagine a submissive, who is very eager to please their D type. Right. and they might be given an order and they might feel compelled to follow it because they wanna please the person.
G: Yes.
M: they’re not necessarily being forced to do it.
Okay. But there is a. And I’m not even saying that the D type is necessarily coercing them.
G: Yes.
M: For sure. But I think that there is a level where the S type could not want to do it and not be able to communicate that.
G: Okay.
M: That doesn’t make it anybody’s fault. I don’t think, it just means that there’s a level of self awareness.
Like, [00:30:00] I know, if I know I’m really suggestible, I need to know if I can get myself out of trance if I need to.
G: Okay.
M: If you’re not as suggestible, it might not be. As big of a concern.
G: Okay.
M: Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. So types of inductions. We’ve talked a little bit about these, but these are kind of modalities.
So there’s a visual, visual type induction, which is like the pendulum swinging back and forth or looking at a spiral there’s auditory, which is listening to the soothing sounds of a hypnotist voice, or it could be a music or it could be anything.
G: The IBS thing was apparently a audio hypnotist thing.
M: Okay. Yeah, I’d be curious to see how that works, for example. and then I don’t know if this is really a modality as much as it is like maybe a subcategory, but this is sort of the meditative or relaxation. So this is maybe like you’re picturing a relaxing place. And it’s, this is, this can definitely be used for self hypnosis, I think, because it’s just kind of, for me, it’s guided meditation.
Okay. You’re just visualizing that relaxing place that you like to go, like the beach or the [00:31:00] forest or something like that.and you just slowly relax over that time period. There’s kinesthetic, which is another type of modality where someone, like I mentioned this, like making circles on your arm repeatedly, for example, That might be an example of a kinesthetic induction, but the handshake induction that we just talked about, that is, cause like these categories all overlap with each other.
G: Yes.
M: So these are not hard and fast categories. The, handshake induction, because it involves a physical contact, I kind of classify that under kinesthetic broadly, cause it is a physical, physical touch.but it’s also an interruption. And an interruption is a specific type of induction as well, but it’s less of a modality.
It’s not like visual, auditory, kinesthetic. It’s more like this category, like, I don’t know, we already said category a bajillion times.
G: Genre?
M: Genre. Let’s go with that.
G: Okay. Sorry. I don’t, as somebody who doesn’t know, I can’t really help you with the categorization of these subtypes.
M: No, [00:32:00] that’s okay. There’s a bajillion ways to do inductions, and you can be really creative with them.
You can do hug inductions, where you’re just hugging someone and you can induce trance. You can do hair play inductions, where you’re playing with someone’s hair. you could do broccoli inductions.
G: I’m, I’m sorry, how does a broccoli induction work?
M: You know, let it just, let the imagination run wild. We can’t cover all types of inductions in this episode, that was just a broad overview.
G: Apparently we can’t cover broccoli inductions.
M: We don’t have time for broccoli inductions today. I’d encourage you to, figure out how to do a broccoli induction, if you are so interested in doing so. we already kind of touched on subject agency.
Mm
G: hmm.
M: and concerns, but it is important for the subject to be able to have agency.
G: Yes.
M: And overall, I think that the subject does have a good amount of power.
G: Mm hmm.
M: Just like an S type or a bottom, they have power.
G: Yeah. I mean, from, [00:33:00] I mean, you can correct me if I’m wrong here, but like, the, while, while the, while the, the top or the D type, Is the one doing the scene, generally, the scene is only happening because the S or bottom wants it to happen.
And I feel like that is a similar dynamic in hypnosis play?
M: Definitely, very similar. So I would say all of your general ideas of consent, risk aware, or whatever you, safe scene consensual, whichever consent based practices that you. Ascribed to.
G: Yeah. Like they
M: all apply here too.
G: Mm hmm.
M: And just like G’s saying, like, the bottom does have a lot of power. so it’s just important to, I think for a subject, it’s important just to be self aware how suggestible you are. Be self aware of when you think that it would be good to like back off of a scene.
both: Mm hmm. Or come
M: out of trance or things like that. not everybody can get themselves out of trance, that’s another thing to [00:34:00] consider.
And I, and then for on the hypnotist side, I do think it’s similar in that you have a lot of responsibility over this person because they’re putting themselves in a very vulnerable situation.
G: Yeah.
M: So recognizing that you have that level of control.
G: And you’re also responsible for the scene going well.
M: Yeah. Or at least going like bad scenes happen. And mistakes happen. Yes. And I think there’s room for those things to happen.
G: Yeah, I mean, I’ve, I’ve had scenes that have gone badly, but the important thing is to
I mean, the important thing is to have the awareness that A, it is going badly. And B, it’s often when it starts to go badly, it’s best just to like cut your losses and end the scene early rather than trying to complete a bad scene.
M: Right. Yeah, absolutely. And so that goes back to self awareness.
G: Yeah,
M: I just realized that we didn’t quite finish the flow of a hypnotic scene [00:35:00] because we talked about going deeper in the pattern I think you had a very good question.
Okay that point there’s also the coming back out of trance
G: Okay,
M: so that could be like counting backwards That could be a visual of you’re like going back up the stairs something like that something to get them to come back to Awakeness you might like slowly say like you start to feel your fingertips and whatever as you bring that feeling back to your body And then there’s aftercare If those people, so, want aftercare, then there’s aftercare post scene.
G: Okay.
M: and overall, like, hypnosis can be used for a lot of stuff.
G: Yes. mean, we’ve talked about the medical play stuff, I, I assume you’re actually, not the medical, the, we’ve talked about the medical stuff and sexual therapy stuff, I assume you’re referring to, like, What you can do inside the kink scene or the erotic hypnosis scene, I guess, to be more accurate.
M: Definitely. Yeah. Hypnosis is versatile outside of the kink scene, but it’s also versatile in the kink scene. it can be used for doing a lot of things that aren’t practical in a physical sense or that [00:36:00] aren’t safe in a physical sense. And you can access more extreme fantasies. Like for example, one of my fantasies is chloroform play, but obviously chloroform has a risk of actual death.
G: Yeah. Also, it doesn’t work like it does in the movies. In the movies, it’s just like one cloth press and they’re instantly out, you know? And like, in actuality, it’s like a 15 or 30 minute process.
M: Yeah. So, and also the risk of death.
G: The risk of death and chemical burns.
M: Yeah, that’s not fun.
G: Yeah. That’s not fun at all.
M: I can use hypnosis for accessing those types of fantasies where they’re not practical.
G: Yeah. Because of the death and the chemical burns.
M: Right. And any number of things. So, and it might require some suspension of disbelief. And this is where a lot of discussions in the community are like, are the effects of hypnosis are real or are they play acting?
And does it matter?
G: I don’t have an answer to this question. Like, well, I guess my first, my [00:37:00] first question is what do they mean by real and play acting?
M: So, I would say it could be either, depending on the person.
G: Okay.
M: And I don’t think it matters.
G: Okay, but what does, what does real and play acting mean in this context?
M: So I think the idea is like, is this a genuine neurological response?
G: Okay.
M: Is this doing the things that we said at the beginning of the episode?
G: Yeah.
M: is that suppressing the prefrontal cortex and activating the anterior cingulate cortex.
G: Mm hmm.
M: Or modulating it.
G: Or people just going along. Or
M: people just going along with it and acting.
G: Okay. I feel like that’s up to the individual.
M: Yeah. It is up to the individual.
And there are some people who, I will say, if you don’t think that you’re suggestible and you’re like, I want to do hypnosis, but I don’t think I, like, I can’t take those suggestions, but you really want to do it, why not just play along and see where it gets you.
G: It’s not that different from like [00:38:00] role playing a scene in the bedroom, or doing a, doing a role play during some sort of kink scene.
M: Yeah. So I think, and it doesn’t matter, like, I think as long as the people are having fun and they’re consenting, then that’s what matters.
G: Okay.
M: and I also think that if you start out by play acting, you might find yourself kind of, it’s kind of like the fake it till you make it.
G: Okay. Yeah. That’s just what I was about to say.
M: We’ve already talked for a very long time about hypnosis, a broad overview of hypnosis.
G: Mm hmm.
M: let’s talk about hypnosis in popular media.
G: Okay. I, I assume you’re first going to talk about The Jungle Book.
M: I am going to talk about The Jungle Book.
G: Because when I was researching this episode, I think I came across three different articles Which talked about the Jungle Book.
M: It is one of the quote unquote gateway drugs to hypnosis play.
G: Okay. Do you want to explain to our listeners how that is the case? Yes. In case they’ve not seen the In case they’ve not seen it, yeah. [00:39:00] The animated Jungle Book
M: movie? So, Kaa is the specific character that a lot of people have some affiliation Not affiliation.
Have some
G: Inspiration.
M: Inspiration. Ka is a fictional character from the Jungle Book series, and basically he’s a very large Indian python, and he kind of moves in these very , nice pattern , kind of wave like movements, right?
singer: Mm hmm.
M: and they’re very smooth and kind of calming to look at, and physically Ka is depicted as a, a massive snake, and he looks very intimidating.
G: Yes.
M: so he kind, he has like a menacing appearance, so that might play into a little bit of that fear play type stuff.
singer: Mm-Hmm. .
M: so his eyes are hypnotic. Yes. And if you, if you watch it, they, they swirl while he’s kind of like,
G: yeah. He does a little swirly thing, does little
M: swirly thing when he’s trying to capture his prey and he basically uses his eyes and hi kind of a soothing, calm voice, to be able to manipulate the people in [00:40:00] the.
movie. Mm hmm he is able to actually lull these targets into a trance like state, and then he can control their thoughts, making them susceptible to suggestions and commands. and they’re, this works on a wide variety of characters from the movie.
G: It happens at least once to Mowgli. At least once,
M: yeah, and then to, I don’t know how to pronounce the guy, the bee, the person with the bee namE.
G: Bagheera?
M: That’s the guy. Okay. The guy?
G: The panther.
M: Panther. Yes. So it also happens to the panther.
G: Okay.
M: A couple times, actually. And I actually saw when I was younger, I saw a, a live production of Jungle Book
G: on stage.
Mm
M: hmm. And it was done, a lot of it was done in the dark, where everything is. glow in the dark, they did like a lot of glow in the dark, and so Kaa had this like glow in the dark swirly eyes.
G: Oh, cool.
M: It was very cool. And these are some of the things you look back on and go, Oh. Ha ha [00:41:00] ha ha ha. That’s why I like that.
. Do you want me to come up with a popular media example?
M: No, you don’t have to come. You don’t have to come up with a popular media example. Okay. I’ve got plenty.
G: Okay. I did come up with some on the drive up.
M: Oh, what were you thinking?
G: well, I remember one episode about Ben
M: 10. Ben 10.
Ooh. Okay. Yeah.
G: The cartoon.
M: huh.
G: Where a hypnotist hypnotizes Ben 10 into, Ben Tennyson, into stealing stuff and is very surprised when an alien shows up delivering the stuff that he asked a kid to steal.
M: Oh. Okay. Okay. I also was thinking of, S T just made me aware of that there is a, an episode or something in Scooby Doo with a ghost clown, if I remember correctly.
G: I mean, there’s a lot of stuff that happens in Scooby Doo. That’s
M: fair.
G: I was also thinking on the way up here that there’s a lot of Star Trek episodes about altered, altered mental states and mind control. There’s like that, that game that Riker brings onto the Enterprise with like the, [00:42:00] the hoops and the whirls.
Then there’s one episode in Deep Space Nine where Loxwana Troi comes and she’s, makes everybody blatantly horny.
M: Oh, yeah.
G: Which was very awkward for some people.
M: Now she’s also a psychic, right?
G: She is telepathic. Telepathic.
M: Okay. Yeah. So there’s a lot of examples. Another, popular one is Hypno or Drowzee, from Pokemon.
So I think it’s Drowzee is the first. form. And then it evolves into Hypno.
G: Yes. As somebody who’s not played a lot of Pokémon, can you describe the, what the Pokémon looks like?
M: Yes. So this is from Bulbapedia.
G: Okay.
M: which is a
G: Ooh, prepared.
M: Bulbapedia. The Wikipedia for Pokémon. so Hypno is a psychic type Pokémon that evolves from Drowsy starting at level 26.
it’s a bipedal, creature with yellow skin, triangular ears, sleepy [00:43:00] eyes, and a large nose, and notably it carries a silver pendulum that it uses for hypnotism and is never seen without it.
G: Okay. Kinda sounds like a tapir. What’s a tapir? T A P I R? Isn’t it like a South American And now I’m, now I’m questioning myself.
M: No, don’t, I just don’t know the name. It doesn’t ring a bell right now. But yes, so it can actually, the Hypno can put people to sleep using its pendulum.
G: Okay.
M: and it’s known for hypnotizing and eating dreams of those it encounters. Okay. And in some cases apparently it’s taken children.
G: Yeah, some of the lore of the Pokemon’s pretty dark when you actually read it.
It’s
M: pretty dark. Okay. Some hypnos assist doctors by helping patients sleep in hospitals. Okay. That was a new fact for me. I didn’t know that before.and apparently in Pokemon Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, a hypno at the trainer school creates illusions, including disguising itself as a human and conjuring illusory [00:44:00] children.
G: Okay. Okay. I do have. One question, which you might not have the answer for. My understanding for the rules of Pokemon was that all Pokemon just say their name. So if a Hypno is using an illusion to pretend to be human. Is it just a human just saying hypno
M: hypno over and over? This is a great question. I actually don’t know the answer to that.
G: Okay.
M: audience folks, if you know, we would love to find out, email us and tell us, does a hypno disguising itself as a human just say hypno hypno over and over again?
G: Yeah. These are the, these are the real questions that this podcast asks. Hard hitting journalism here.
M: Absolutely. Most recently, I started watching a show called Dollhouse, which is by Joss Whedon.
I wanted to give a small disclaimer about Whedon. We did do an episode on Firefly.
G: Yes, but I think that was before? No,
M: I think it was still. Okay. Yeah, cause like he’s been getting some
G: Okay.
M: [00:45:00] Criticisms for a while. There is some potentially like problematic behaviors of Whedon.
G: Yes.
M: that being said, I am watching the show.
and I am enjoying it so far. I mean, I did watch Firefly.but that’s not to excuse any of Josh Whedon’s potential. Yes. Yeah, for sure.so Dollhouse is a science fiction TV series, and the show revolves around a secret, highly illegal organization known as the Dollhouse, which basically offers wealthy clients the ability to rent out what’s referred to as actives, sometimes referred to as dolls, but I think so far in the show I’ve heard actives, and those are individuals whose memories and personalities have been entirely erased.
and can be programmed with different identity skills and memories for various assignments or fantasies. Everything from it could be a sexual or even there was references to a kinky fantasy like once the main character was a dominatrix.
G: Yeah.
M: And there was a very interesting comment that was made in that episode.
I think it was it was the doctor I think who said actives never go out as the submissive.
G: [00:46:00] Interesting.
M: Yes, which I think that kind of makes sense because like, they’re in a very vulnerable state, having all of these. Yes. Yeah, very, very fragile. , also, this is very problematic because these people, even though there’s
Talk that they are doing this consensually, but it is How could
G: you verify that? Yeah, you
M: can’t verify that. Yeah.
G: And also, at least in the latest episode, I happened to catch one episode that that Em was watching where they found a spy, and the moment they found the spy, they just wiped his memory.
Right. And there was obviously no consent there.
M: Right.
G: So, you know, they can talk all they want about, you know,
M: Oh, these are volunteers or whatever. Yeah.
G: We’re paying them massive amounts of money to rent out their bodies, but A, how could you ever verify that? Right. B, how could you ever regain autonomy of your body once you’re in that state?
Right. Especially since it is highly illegal. It’s not like the government’s [00:47:00] going to regulate it. Right.
M: Yeah. So definitely, a non consensual use of hypnosis for sure. I did want to talk about one interesting phenomenon that happens in the show that is related to hypnosis, a hypnosis technique, and that is call and response.
In fact, in the very beginning, they even call it call and response. It’s where they have this, scene between the, like, it’s kind of like a bonding ritual between the handler, the person who’s protecting the active or doll and, the doll, the active. And basically they have a script where the handler says one thing and then the, the active knows what to say back in response.
Let’s call them response.
G: Yeah.
M: and that’s kind of to cement in this, in this show, it’s cementing the relationship. Right. The relationship and the trusting and the safety that comes with it. And of course there is, and I will give a trigger warning, content warning for the show is that like one handler is abusing this and is, sexually assaulting, one of the actives which becomes [00:48:00] exposed and.
there are repercussions for his behavior and everything, but, yes, so the dolls are kind of trained to like inherently
G: trust their handlers, trust the
M: handler, right. And then in our robots episode, which I think was episode three, but I am not a prepared podcaster Pied Piper, we already covered a little bit of Westworld if I remember correctly.
G: Yes, we did.
M: Robot play is sort of its own kind of sub genre of hypnosis play. and I would say that Westworld and Dollhouse have very similar themes.
G: Okay.
M: They both make use of something called amnesia.
G: Okay.
M: So in the Dollhouse, they’re, these dolls previous memories are totally wiped.
They can’t remember who they are. And then every encounter they have with these people in those new personalities, when they come back to the dollhouse, they have those memories wiped.
G: Mm hmm.
M: So they’re always going back to a blank state.
both: Yes.
M: And it’s kind of similar in Westworld, where , they are robots, but they start back on a loop.
, they don’t really, like, remember.
G: Yeah. Once they, once they reach the end of their storyline, no matter what the consequences of that are, [00:49:00] they get reset back to the start of their storyline.
M: Right. Exactly. And so they don’t access those memories.
G: Mm hmm.
M: This relates to hypnosis. there’s kind of like a quirk of hypnosis called amnesia play.
It’s kind of a fun aspect. Not everyone’s into it for sure in the hypnosis community, and it is a very edgy play. Like, all of hypnosis is edgy play, I would say, because you’re messing with someone’s mind.
But
amnesia play is even more so. and it’s exactly what it sounds like. It’s making someone forget things that have happened, either in trance or during certain triggers.
you could have a whole scene with someone and just tell them like, and now you’re not gonna remember any of that. Or I’ve had amnesia play done to me where I’ve had, I like, I do rope play. I tie people up, I do bondage. And I was made to forget like how to use rope and like what it was for. So I just like came up Just
G: looking at all this rope being like I was like,
M: Oh, Oh, this must be like for jump ropinG.
Or so that was, it was pretty fun. and I, yeah, so this is kind of hardcore play, and this is where I go back to the beginning of the episode where I say, , this is very easy [00:50:00] to abuse.
G: Yes.
M: I do think, please negotiate to the fullest extent possible when trying this type of play, and make sure everyone knows the risk
G: Okay.
as for other popular media, well, maybe not popular media, but erotic media, I’ve read some like mind control and hypnosis stuff, like erotic literature. And
M: do you like it?
G: I don’t read it as much anymore. I used to read it a lot. When I was a lot younger, I was reading a lot of sort of mind control harem stuff, and then when I started exploring my gender identity, I was like reading some feminization, bi mbofication stuff, but I haven’t really read it recently. part of that is just like, I don’t My libido is somewhat diminished since I started doing HRT, so I just don’t read as much erotic literature as I used to.
M: Yeah, so you had mentioned two different types of hypnosis play, in there, feminization [00:51:00] and bimbofication. Yes. And a lot of the times this can go hand in hand.
G: Yes.
M: there’s also jockification.
G: Jockification. Okay. On the other
M: side of things. Not, not to put them in a binary way, but just, I’ve definitely, had fun doing some jockification before.
G: Okay.
M: and also just like there’s feminization, you can do masculinization and there’s a lot of hypnosis play that’s geared towards trans folks for like feeling like you have certain body parts or feeling more masculine or more feminine, like you’re saying for exploring your gender and things like that and exploring like body parts. So yeah. Yeah. This was like a lot to cram into an hour.
G: Yeah.
M: How are you feeling?
G: I’m feeling good.
M: Yeah?
G: Yeah. I feel like I was here, but I asked some good questions.
M: Well, if you liked listening to us, talk about hypnosis and learn a little bit more about that type of play. with the person’s consent, make a hypnotic suggestion to your friends to listen to this podcast episode.
G: And, consensually, [00:52:00] let me hypnotize you to donate at the link at the bottom of the show notes.
Consensually. Consensually.
M: This is M. This is G. Don’t be afraid to love how you love.
G: Love what you love.
M: And love who you love.
Oh my gosh. Do you know Sabrina Carpenter?
G: The, the fictional character?
M: No, the singer. The singer? I just found out about her. Okay. But she’s got a song called Espresso, but she has this line where she’s like switching it up like Nintendo. And I was like. I was like, she’s referencing Nintendo in her song. Yeah. It’s amazing. I didn’t do it [00:53:00] justice.
G: Okay. I’m going to listen to this.
Her voice is
M: way better.
It’s a sex song. That’s what X tells me. That it’s a sex song. Cause I didn’t know that.
G: It’s a sex song.
M: I was just like, she’s switching it up like Nintendo.
You know, she’s playing on her switch. Like, I don’t
G: know. That’s not, I don’t know much about music in general. I’m happy to admit that. But unless the music is specifically geared towards gamers, if there is a reference to Nintendo Switch, it is not actually about the Nintendo Switch.
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